Defending Democracy through Transparency: Jan Rezab, CEO & Co-Founder of Ravineo, in Conversation with Serena Kutchinsky, Assistant Editor at Sky News
Serena Kutchinsky: Hi, Jan. What do you see as the biggest threat to democracy in the digital age?
Jan Rezab: I believe the most significant threat comes from social media and digital platforms, particularly due to their lack of transparency.
Serena Kutchinsky: Is legislation, such as the EU’s Digital Services Act, the right approach? Does it risk impinging on freedom of expression?
Jan Rezab: There’s been a lot of talk about EU possibly over regulating certain areas, but very few people, even the ones that have been criticizing it publicly, have actually read those regulations. I think there are very common sense regulations in the European Union, like our food safety, which is one of the best in the world, but the Digital Services Act is one of the best pieces of regulation, and what it allows is accountability and transparency.
Do we want these platforms to run according to some democratic values and rules? I think the answer is yes. Do we want to be influenced by politicians in an almost illegal way, or illegal tactics being used to target our brains? I think we don’t want that.
Serena Kutchinsky: Can a single territory, even one as large as the EU, effectively regulate global social platforms?
Jan Rezab: It’s more challenging for smaller countries, but the EU, with its vast market of several hundred million people, holds significant leverage. The Act includes fines up to 6% of a company’s global revenue, making enforcement feasible. We’ve also seen countries like Brazil successfully regulate platforms like X, despite resistance.
Serena Kutchinsky: It’s clear that we are finally entering an age of regulation. But what what happens when you have a country like the United Kingdom, where I’m from, where we have the Online Safety Act, which you said to me was sort of toothless compared to the Digital Services Act in the EU – so what happens when you have different levels of regulation in different countries? And how do you resolve that?
Jan Rezab: I truly believe that we are now finding out, even the people that write the laws. What is the impact if you don’t regulate from a European standpoint? We have to not only defend the DSA, the Digital Services Act, we need to push more access to researchers, more access to open initiatives, and really research these platforms.
On a public level, the platforms are seemingly open to this, but internally they aren’t. They don’t want to give a single ounce of data out, even to researchers. So I think we have to keep these platforms accountable. And I implore anyone who’s in researching media, ads, digital social media to talk to us. We want to do and play a more coordinating role. We are launching many nonprofit initiatives. We will start reverse engineering these news feeds ourselves, if the platforms won’t allow it, and allow it on an open access level with scholar researchers with PhDs. Who are experts in their fields.
Because right now, if you look at these platforms, for example, TikTok has banned political advertising. But in Germany, basically this AFD party, which is something between nationalists and Nazis, is coming out and running iPad contests on on their telegram channel to for the person that pushes most propaganda on TikTok, that’s absolutely not okay.
Our youth are being gamified, like the US election a week ago, our elderly too, gamified by algorithms. They are not transparent, and that farms and bots are being driving probably a majority of that engagement in there. It’s so easy to do this, so easy to gamify these algorithms, and it shouldn’t be. Europe doesn’t need to resort to banning platforms if they comply with established rules. Many platforms have begun embracing transparency, but more is needed. Without adequate regulation, democracy in Europe could be at risk. There’s ample evidence globally that mere defense may not suffice.
Serena Kutchinsky: Is one solution potentially that you regulate some platforms that are more guilty of the spread of misinformation, however you measure that, such as X potentially or Telegram? Do they get harder surveillance and fines or punishments?
Jan Rezab: There’s a lot of talk and a lot of “Elon Musk says it’s crazy”. Business wise, absolutely respect what Elon Musk has built. He also says he’s a free speech absolutist. But then you have all this evidence of great features they don’t apply to Elon Musk’s profile. He’s not published some posts and delayed some that should have been published. He’s actually spread misinformation and fake news himself, verifiably. Should different rules allowed to apply to different platforms?
No, the same rules should be enforced on all these platforms. And I think that one of these solutions, potentially, is this fake verification that Elon has done, where anonymous accounts can purchase verification. We should stop this fake verification now. Facebook started imitating it, Instagram started imitating it. There should be no fake verified.
Serena Kutchinsky: Where in Europe have you observed disinformation causing political disruption?
Jan Rezab: Disinformation is widespread across Europe. For instance, during Slovakia’s presidential election, certain campaigns employed unethical tactics, spending between €20,000 and €100,000 to sway results.
But this is a fundamental problem if you can really cheat your way into public offices by abusing social media platforms. They have this tremendous power of reaching one to yhree million people in a country within hours with any messaging, and the average time of a social media platform taking a post or an ad down is three to seven days, and it’s two days before elections. What are you going to do?
Serena Kutchinsky: Regarding the recent U.S. election and Donald Trump’s victory, what role did disinformation play?
Jan Rezab: Analyzing U.S. elections reveals a form of psychological media warfare. Campaigns run numerous ads with varying messages targeting different groups, sometimes presenting contradictory information. Such deep targeting is now restricted in the EU but remains prevalent in the U.S., undermining democracy.
Serena Kutchinsky: How do you differentiate between targeted campaign messaging and the use of troll farms and bots spreading false information?
Jan Rezab: In a way you don’t, but with troll farms their engagement is a currency, and we’ve allowed this currency to mark up and boost up the social media content, and more often than not, this engagement is not real. It’s farming, it’s trolls, it’s bots, etc. And we’ve allowed this currency to govern our information feeds, our news feeds.
I think that news feed algorithms should be completely transparent. I should be able to influence my own newsfeed. So that can be wishful thinking, but they’re not going to self regulate. So while I’m against giving exact advice, like you should do this in this particular case, they’re too powerful, and the disengagement that is happening all over the place is just too powerful of a factor to ignore and let loose on our society. And we have seen cases around Europe where candidates went from zero to 17% of votes in Eastern countries where their parties didn’t exist, but through applying techniques that you’re launching hundreds of fake media websites that are just supporting one single candidate.
That’s not okay, and it influences the most volatile groups. It influences the elderly that consider their news feed on Facebook actual news. And that’s not okay. And of course, it comes with the other party. If you start regulating that, what do you stop regulating? But I think there is a solution. It’s a society where you maintain absolutist free speech whilst maintaining certain rules to the platforms.
Serena Kutchinsky: Could education play a role in combating disinformation? How should it be implemented?
Jan Rezab: Education is crucial but insufficient alone. Digital media literacy should start early, but many parents lack the knowledge to guide their children. Some countries have implemented bans on social media for minors, but the solution isn’t clear-cut. Education must be coupled with regulation to be effective.
Serena Kutchinsky: What about older generations? For example, my 75-year-old mother shared a manipulated video thinking it was real. How do we address this?
Jan Rezab: Social media is currently rigged, and transparency alone won’t solve the issue, as bad actors could exploit open algorithms. Regulating how users engage with social media is essential to maintain its original intent of connecting friends. There’s a need for a framework governing broader information dissemination.
Serena Kutchinsky: With varying levels of regulation across countries, how do we address inconsistencies, such as the UK’s Online Safety Act being less stringent than the EU’s Digital Services Act?
Jan Rezab: It’s vital to defend and enhance regulations like the Digital Services Act, promoting more access for researchers and open initiatives. Platforms often resist sharing data, even with researchers. We must hold them accountable and, if necessary, reverse-engineer news feeds to understand their impact.
Serena Kutchinsky: What practical steps can individuals take daily to safeguard democracy?
Jan Rezab: I think, first call your mother or grandmother and take them off of social media. Of course, that’s not always possible. So the only alternative is call your politicians and demand stronger regulation demand, you know, publicly, as if there’s journalists in the room, demand accountability from these platforms. Ask the hard questions to these platforms, because if we don’t, if we don’t apply universal pressure, we have like this is going to be huge.
Serena Kutchinsky: On a positive note, how can individuals and companies in the EU leverage existing tools to effect change?
Jan Rezab: EU citizens have the right to access their information and should demand control over their news feeds. Users should be able to customize their social media environments, choosing the content they see. Currently, platforms dictate this, and we must collectively challenge this concentration of power.
Serena Kutchinsky: How do we convince platforms to allow personalized news feeds, considering it might affect their revenue?
Jan Rezab: I don’t believe it would significantly impact their revenue, as most income comes from brands and businesses. We’re not asking for fewer ads but for the removal of bad actors. Users should have the right to organize their digital lives, which is currently restricted by platform control.
Serena Kutchinsky: So, a personalized news feed is key to the future?
Jan Rezab: Absolutely. Empowering users to curate their content is essential for a healthier digital environment.
